Posts by Old Goat

45

The great crowd has no mediator. Jesus is only the mediator for the 144K

by blond-moment in

jw
friends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft-ey9qodgw.

Old Goat

The misrepresentation lies in the assumption that without a mediator, the great crowd are without the covering of christ's ransom. Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that. You confuse their teachings on mediator and propitiator. Damn it. I'm not supporting their teaching. I'm saying that their teaching is misrepresented.

The quotations you give us do not prove that they teach that the "great crowd" is without ransom benefits. All they prove is that Witnesses believe that there is no salvation outside the New Covenant arrangement.

You've made this mistake of assuming that because the quotations use the terms that concern you that they say what you seem to think. In fact they say the opposite. The articles you cite teach what I said they teach. Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant between God and Spiritual Israel. In Biblical terms a "mediator" is a contract negotiator. The contract in this case is the New Covenant. A "propitiator" is a peace maker, a reconciler. In terms of raw lexicographical definition, they get that right.

They reason that Spiritual Israel is a limited number, 144,000. This is probably wrong, but that's how they reason. What ever the number of Spiritual Israel, only they are in a relationship with Christ as "mediator." You confuse mediator with the concept of Christ as High Priest. Even witnesses recognize that he is high priest for all. As high priest he is "propitiator." As John says, that's for "not just our sins, but for those of the whole world."

I'm not telling you to accept Witness teaching. Some of this is questionable. But it IS what they teach. They do NOT teach that the great crowd, the rest of humanity, or anyone approaching God is without ransom covering.

45

The great crowd has no mediator. Jesus is only the mediator for the 144K

by blond-moment in

jw
friends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft-ey9qodgw.

Old Goat

I'm not here to defend Watchtower doctrine, but this blatantly misrepresents what they teach. They do not teach that Christ does not represent "the great crowd". They teach that Jesus was the Mediator of the New Covenant the parties to which are God and the Bride of Christ. They believe the New Covenant is between God and Spiritual Israel alone. The Watchtower teaches that Jesus is the propitiator for the Bride of Christ and the rest of the world. Watchtower doctrine, though perhaps convoluted, does not leave "the great crowd" without the covering of Christ's ransom. The Watchtower is correct in so far as they identify the purpose of a "mediator." A mediator is not a propitiator. I'm not going to explain the meanings of the original Greek words and such. If you're that interested, a little research will take you to them.

The purposeful misrepresentation of this doctrine on the part of a few who knew what the Watchtower really teaches has made others indignant. They created a non-issue. Focus on the things that are wrong. Misrepresenting what is taught does not produce the results you may wish for. There are enough real issues on which to focus.

55

Elders Can Hide their Own Sins from the Past-Yet Continue as Elders? Read

by flipper in

jw
friends

i was shocked ( though i probably shouldn't have been ) when reading the new elders manual concerning whether elders have to confess up about former sins from a few years earlier.

notice this on pg.

38 , paragraph 19 : it states, " if it comes to light or an appointed brother confesses that he has committed a disfellowshipping offense years in the past : the body of elders may determine he can continue to serve if the following is true : the immorality or other serious wrongdoing occured more than a few years ago, and he is genuinely repentant, recognizing that he should have come forward immediately when he sinned.

Old Goat

Elder misconduct was a huge factor in my decision to resign as an elder and to fade. Elder bodies are often "old boys" clubs instead of a group of spiritual men.

65

any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds

by mind blown in

is any of this true?

historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.

this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.

Old Goat

Truthseeker: The meaning is discussed earlier in this thread. It was a memorial to the Watch Tower Society with name inscribed on the open books. They have worn off and are not readable now.

Russell saw the pyramid apex as representing Christ as "head of the corner." The cap stone of God's organization. The rays represent Christ's guidance. Read earlier comments in this post for more.

Oz: The letter was to Baron Hirsch, with a copy sent to Rothschild. It's Russell's statement of belief that God intended to restore the Jews.

Most of the old Watch Towers are now online. A good google search will lead you to Russell's own statements on the Pyramid. Most of what is said about it by today's writers is wrong and out of context. It's a good lesson in research. It has always been true that print on a page isn't proof of anything. That's even more true in the Internet Age.

39

How many JWs will leave the organization after viewing the Sparlock video? Estimate

by Iamallcool in

jw
friends

.

Old Goat

My children, all of whom are still Witnesses and two of whom are Pioneers, grew up reading the Oz books, The King of Elfland's Daughter and similar books. I'm certain those books did not damange their respect for the Bible, their inclination to believe what the Watchtower said, and even more certain that they weren't lead into spiritism and magic by fantasy fiction.

The video is stupid. It's not the first Watchtower product that fails. (If I still had young children in my house, I would not encourage them to view it.) It won't be the last. But I doubt anyone will leave over it. It takes something really personal to move people to leave. I'm not even anxious for anyone to leave. As long as they find a comfort-giving home among Witnesses, let them stay. I say that with my youngest child in mind. I think the Witness organization suits her. My oldest who is in her 40s has a sharp mind and sees what my youngest does not. She may eventually leave. Those like her cannot read what the Watch Tower prints and not have questions about the rationality and research presented.

Some are reluctant to part with cherished associations and beliefs. I became a Witness in the late 1940s when it was a far different religion than it is today. I was a Company Servant, a Congregation Servant, Elder, and spoke at District Conventions and lived in some of the most depressed, backwater places on earth for the sake of "the truth." It took decades of changes, personal abuse, up-close and personal contact with Watchtower personalities for me to finally say that much of what was done and some key teachings were wrong. Still, I have no problem seeing many Witnesses as true Christians, even if misguided in some respects.

65

any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds

by mind blown in

is any of this true?

historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.

this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.

Old Goat

To answer questions and reply to comments:

1. Schulz and de Vienne say they're about half done with book 2 in their history series. Book two concentrates on the years 1870-1887, though there is a strong backwards look into Russell antecedents and his Age to Come and Adventist and Literalist influences. I've seen most of their chapter on Storrs, Stetson, Wendell, et. al. Stunning. Things you will not have seen or will not know, all documented from original sources that include Stetson’s personal letters which still exist.

2. They have a public and private blog. Some of what is on the private blog spills over to the public blog. The private blog consists of long extracts, sometimes full chapters, from their research. It is unwise to post one's work-in-progress to an open blog. There are copyright issues, plagiarism issues, and one must consider that further research changes things. I've seen their research amend earlier posts. Dr. de Vienne pointed me to someone else's "history" post that copied something Mr. Schulz wrote years ago and posted on the internet. They now know this is wrong. Yet, the person who claims to have the best short history of the Watchtower copied it entire without checking.

3. The public blog is http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/ . It is open to everyone.

4. The principal donors in the first year (1881) of Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society are known. A document dated to that year contains the amounts donated and the signatures of the original donors. I cited the amounts earlier. Their chapter on financing the work contains a photo of the signatures with the amounts noted. You will have to wait for publication. I was roundly scolded for posting from the closed blog. Someone sent Dr. de Vienne a link to this discussion. She was kind but adamant. I will not repeat the mistake.

5. The facts will not dissuade a true believer. Questions about Russell and the Masons and “Illuminati” will persist no matter how plain the evidence is that there is no connection.

6. There are, however, surprising connections. They’re just not scandalous. Usually. Conley involved himself in the faith-cure (faith healing) movement and on the recommendation of Whitesides (Christian and Missionary Alliance) hired a C&ME clergyman to run his faith-cure home. This clergy man liked to kiss the girls as a spiritual experience. More than kiss them. It was a huge scandal, but it did not touch Russell.

7. S and de V. also found a diary entry from a well known female evangelist detailing Russell’s attempt to get her to go to lunch. No scandal though. They found a comment by a well-known Methodist clergyman explaining his attempts to comfort Russell over the hell-fire doctrine.

8. Lastly, you’re welcome. Watchtower history interests me. I’ve never seen anything as good as what Schulz and de Vienne write. The Proclaimers book looks shallow next to their research. They take to task, usually in a fairly polite way, both opposition writers and Watchtower writers, pointing out errors. I’ve truly enjoyed reading their sometimes snarky comments.

65

any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds

by mind blown in

is any of this true?

historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.

this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.

Old Goat

Sha'el is R. M. de Vienne, PhD. She writes fantasy fiction in addition to history. Hence the name. She is not a Witness. The truth history blog is run by her and two others. The other two are Witnesses, but they're very careful and honest researchers. I know - or rather knew - Mr. Schulz "back in the day." Miss de Vienne teaches history and literature. She used to lecture at a university, though right off hand I do not remember which. I do not know her except via email. Mr. Schulz teaches history, and is a long-time witnesses. There is, i believe, some sort of family connection between them.

Russell's beliefs were not numerology. That's something entirely different. He believed the pyramid's measurements supported a Bible chronology he got elsewhere. But we each see things within our own social context. Pyramidology may have fallen into the repertoire of occultists, but it did not start there.

Mind, the comment was wrong, no matter who made it. Russell approved the design. There is valid documented evidence to support that. But people say uninformed things. It happens all the time, not just in regard to religion. It's not surprising.

You might note that Russell did not derive the date 1914 from pyramidology. It derives from the work of several. The 2520 year calculation came from an American clergyman who published about 1808. The 1914 date comes from E. B. Elliot, an anglican clergyman. You will find a discussion of this in the book Nelson Barbour: The Millennium's Forgotten Prophet. It's an ebook on B and N or tradepaper on lulu.com.

It's well worth a read. The ebook is by far the less expensive of the two. It's about half the paper bound version. Unless you plan on keeping the book in your library, I'd go with the ebook.

65

any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds

by mind blown in

is any of this true?

historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.

this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.

Old Goat

I'm not aware of saying "I highly doubt, however, that Russell would have approved of such a monument." I believe I said he did approve of the monument. I've cited the 1919 convention report to that effect twice. Russell approved of all sorts of nonsense that came from others. Not to change the topic, but you ever read about the "vow"? How about Millennial Beans? Russell was a mixture of the very bright and the very gullible.

65

any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds

by mind blown in

is any of this true?

historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.

this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.

Old Goat

Russell did in fact approve the monument. It was meant to reflect his belief that the great pyramid was God's great Stone Witness on the border of Egypt. See my comment above.

The Watch Tower did not abandon this belief until 1928, almost ten years after the monument was finished.

How is it an abomination? It's not Masonic, pagan or any such thing. The belief is silly, though many still hold to it, and Russell held to it long after it was discredited by facts. In 1881 some used a pyramid measurement to suggest a prophetic crisis for that year. Russell saw the year as important too, though not on that basis. Still, the events of 1881 should have made him question the validity of his belief. He was very reluctant to abandon any teaching he once accepted though there are some examples of him doing so. The pyramid cap stone was supposed to represent Jesus, "the head of the corner." The rays going downward represented Jesus guidance of the church. The open book, meant to hold the names of those who died "faithfully", is derived from the Bible (Name found written in the book of life.) At most it is a very presumptious monument because it presumed to identify who god put in the book of life. Abomination? I don't think so. Misdirected? Certainly.

65

any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds

by mind blown in

is any of this true?

historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.

this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.

Old Goat

As a note to the comment: "Several years after Russell died, Rutherford had a replica of God's witness in Egypt constructed in the middle of the plot owned by the WTS in the Rosemont Cemetery. There is nothing at all about Rutherford's pyramid monument, however, that is connected with the Freemasons' organization, nor with the Rosicrucians, etc. I highly doubt, however, that Russell would have approved of such a monument."

As noted earlier, a convention report shows the planning for this monument started in 1914. The design was approved by Russell. It was not Rutherford's idea. That is was his idea is a bit of Bible Student propaganda. The idea came from Bonhet, was designed by him, and approved by Russell. see: Souvenir Notes from the Bible Student’s Convention: Pittsburgh, Pa., January 2-5, 1919, page 7 .

You should be able to find that online.